Saw this quote on Dreher’s blog a couple of days ago: "In the old days, people left their churches because they didn't believe in God. Now they leave them because they do." It grieves me to see the institutional decay all around me. It’s also weird seeing all the Boomer church leaders in the mainline deny this reality. Zoomer is like many I suspect from his generation who see films and pictures from another age that they never experienced and yet they long for that time and experience. It is actually sad that the previous generation were unable to steward and hand over what they received. RZ needs a mentor to help guide him through the institutional wreckage that we are living in.
Redeemed Zoomer reminds me of those folks who don’t have kids lecturing parents on the correct manner of child rearing based on everything they’ve read. 😆
Off topic - but I grew up Baptist and then non-denominational evangelical; my only interaction with Episcopalians was when I went to Guatemala after my senior year of high school with Students International (mission work). I was with a Christian school group from my hometown, and the other group there was young people from the Episcopal Church. What I seem to remember was the girl I spoke to telling me why she was there, and being confused, because it didn’t seem to have anything to do with God. And then I remember that a small faction of that group, seeing how our group seemed to have something they were missing, came to understand salvation and relationship with Christ - siting that they have never had that.
So I’m sure that was not every group of Episcopalian youth in the late nineties, but it’s what I assumed because of that experience.
I know very little about Anglicanism either, but I very much enjoy hearing about a kind of Christianity where tradition and doctrine and ritual AND faith can exist together.
Okay, in full transparency, my family was in harms way in Kabul, in 1980 when the Russians launched their invasion, but, generally speaking, Missionaries, like any number expatriates, do have systems and structures that help them understand the safety levels in any given situation. Zoomers accusation of evangelical missionaries putting their children in harms way is a popular trope these days, but it also confirms a first world bias against developing nations in which they believe the danger levels to be much higher than they actually are.
PS I made a whole episode about Ascension Day (May 29th) on my podcast Bammerhab: Words from the Word. In researching the podcast, I found that most Christians didn't even know it existed! We all obviously know about Easter and Pentecost, but Ascension Day gets kind of lost in the shuffle! It is interesting because Ascension is very linked with the biblical concept of rapture, which Evangelicals in general study up on very well, and have several biblical takes on, and yet even then, they still ignore Ascension Day! It's really too bad!
“There is a continual division going on all the time as Christ makes his invisible and eternal Bride into who she is supposed to be.”
And now I’m off to church, where my pastor will preach Christ and encourage us to submit to the Spirit’s leading us in repentance and holiness. And then snacks and fellowship (also known as encouragement!)
You comment about TEC, or as I still occasionally say ECUSA, leaving the faith reminds me of a recent comment from a local ECO (Presbyterian) church that we've been visiting, since the pastor of our former PCUSA church has fully revealed himself to be universalist. (In retrospect, when I pastor can in 2016, I should have scoped out his lld church in another state, but alas...) Anyway, the senior pastor of this church said far too often we hear, "I didn't leave my church, my church left me.". RZ seems to be stuck in 1649 in his approach. While I wish him well, I was stagnating at my old church. While personal reading and study of the Scriptures are important, sound preaching and teaching from your osn pastor is just as, if not more important. I should not have to seek out Adrian Rogers, Charles Stanley, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Alister Begg, others like them, or even Matt Kennedy :-) as the principal source of sound preaching BEFORE my pastor for sound teaching, but I did.
I’m in one of the few “evangelical” PCUSA churches, and we use Sproul, Begg, Richard Bewes in SS. Still, the denomination is dying (eliminating missionaries, recent membership stats). We basically exist as a congregational church within the Presbytery. I thought in the Ortlund/RZ debate, it was significant RZ aligned with neo-orthodoxy & threw in NT Wright. That tells me his view of Scripture is more in line with Fuller than Westminster. He’s not operating under Sola Scriptura.
We have a mega "evangelical" PCUSA congregation about the same distance away as the former PCUSA now ECO, but we did that size church in our 20s-30s. There is another smaller one 12 miles near my office, but I am in the city five days a week as it is. All the other PCUSA congregations near us are explicitly very liberal. So, we'll check out the ECO first.
I listened to that podcast yesterday and wondered what you would say to Redeemed Zoomer at many points. I kind of doubt that the people whose guidelines he cites would have the same advice for our circumstances that they did in the Reformation.
Our old TEC church used to do Ascension Day on the beach (on Thursday). It was a beautiful service being outside in creation. It was one of my favourite services. Our Anglican Church does it on Thursday, I wasn’t feeling well and sadly missed it this year.
Yesterday my pastor preached a remarkable sermon on Jesus’ High Priestly Prayer. When he spoke of Jesus’ oneness with the Father and our righteousness that comes from Jesus’ death and resurrection which resulted in our oneness with Jesus and the Father, my little brain actually understood for a moment. The enormity of the Father’s love is overwhelming and I praise God that the Holy Spirit has given me the faith that can hold onto this knowledge and my little pea brain can actually rejoice in the moment. “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”
There are two things that young men tend to have in abundance: zeal and foolishness. I admire RZ's zeal for the Church, and wish him well in that regard. But he has broad-brushed as cowards and schismatics people of courage and conviction whose clerical collars he is not worthy to unbutton. The great flaw in his perspective is that it apparently has left him in a church without anyone to whom he is accountable who can tell him when he is speaking without wisdom.
Redeemed Zoomer seems to be a uniquely clueless individual.
I'm super thankful that our tiny parish has always had a "real" Ascension Day service, on the proper Thursday. Even though we do not have a church building, we hold about 30 mid-weak HC services, covering all the red-letter feasts for sure, and some of the lesser feasts as well.
I'm going to make it a point of being more thankful for this.
Interestingly, I listened to a debate/discussion between Redeemed Zoomer and Trent Horn (Catholic apologist) on Trent’s podcast “The Council of Trent” To be fair, it is the only thing I have listened to of RZ, but I thought it was interesting. I think you would enjoy it…Definitely food for thought, as is your counter argument. I think at the core, the question ends up being “do you ever give up all for lost or do you fight to the death?” (I pose this as also a cradle Episcopalian who also felt TEC left me)
I do know this….Leaving wasn’t for the weak or the faint of heart. ❤️
Ascension Day, interestingly, is a day of obligation for those in the Ordinariate. No transferring to Sunday; it was its own thing on Thursday, complete with a pitch-in dinner.
In any case, in the case of Redeemed Zoomer, I appreciate he means well, but there is also that unfortunate symptom of the internet where maybe people don’t need as much exposure when they haven’t fully worked through some things that others have battled and labored through for long decades.
Saw this quote on Dreher’s blog a couple of days ago: "In the old days, people left their churches because they didn't believe in God. Now they leave them because they do." It grieves me to see the institutional decay all around me. It’s also weird seeing all the Boomer church leaders in the mainline deny this reality. Zoomer is like many I suspect from his generation who see films and pictures from another age that they never experienced and yet they long for that time and experience. It is actually sad that the previous generation were unable to steward and hand over what they received. RZ needs a mentor to help guide him through the institutional wreckage that we are living in.
Redeemed Zoomer reminds me of those folks who don’t have kids lecturing parents on the correct manner of child rearing based on everything they’ve read. 😆
Smile and nod. They mean well.
Off topic - but I grew up Baptist and then non-denominational evangelical; my only interaction with Episcopalians was when I went to Guatemala after my senior year of high school with Students International (mission work). I was with a Christian school group from my hometown, and the other group there was young people from the Episcopal Church. What I seem to remember was the girl I spoke to telling me why she was there, and being confused, because it didn’t seem to have anything to do with God. And then I remember that a small faction of that group, seeing how our group seemed to have something they were missing, came to understand salvation and relationship with Christ - siting that they have never had that.
So I’m sure that was not every group of Episcopalian youth in the late nineties, but it’s what I assumed because of that experience.
I know very little about Anglicanism either, but I very much enjoy hearing about a kind of Christianity where tradition and doctrine and ritual AND faith can exist together.
I appreciate you, Anne! Happy Sunday.
Okay, in full transparency, my family was in harms way in Kabul, in 1980 when the Russians launched their invasion, but, generally speaking, Missionaries, like any number expatriates, do have systems and structures that help them understand the safety levels in any given situation. Zoomers accusation of evangelical missionaries putting their children in harms way is a popular trope these days, but it also confirms a first world bias against developing nations in which they believe the danger levels to be much higher than they actually are.
PS I made a whole episode about Ascension Day (May 29th) on my podcast Bammerhab: Words from the Word. In researching the podcast, I found that most Christians didn't even know it existed! We all obviously know about Easter and Pentecost, but Ascension Day gets kind of lost in the shuffle! It is interesting because Ascension is very linked with the biblical concept of rapture, which Evangelicals in general study up on very well, and have several biblical takes on, and yet even then, they still ignore Ascension Day! It's really too bad!
“There is a continual division going on all the time as Christ makes his invisible and eternal Bride into who she is supposed to be.”
And now I’m off to church, where my pastor will preach Christ and encourage us to submit to the Spirit’s leading us in repentance and holiness. And then snacks and fellowship (also known as encouragement!)
You comment about TEC, or as I still occasionally say ECUSA, leaving the faith reminds me of a recent comment from a local ECO (Presbyterian) church that we've been visiting, since the pastor of our former PCUSA church has fully revealed himself to be universalist. (In retrospect, when I pastor can in 2016, I should have scoped out his lld church in another state, but alas...) Anyway, the senior pastor of this church said far too often we hear, "I didn't leave my church, my church left me.". RZ seems to be stuck in 1649 in his approach. While I wish him well, I was stagnating at my old church. While personal reading and study of the Scriptures are important, sound preaching and teaching from your osn pastor is just as, if not more important. I should not have to seek out Adrian Rogers, Charles Stanley, RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Alister Begg, others like them, or even Matt Kennedy :-) as the principal source of sound preaching BEFORE my pastor for sound teaching, but I did.
I’m in one of the few “evangelical” PCUSA churches, and we use Sproul, Begg, Richard Bewes in SS. Still, the denomination is dying (eliminating missionaries, recent membership stats). We basically exist as a congregational church within the Presbytery. I thought in the Ortlund/RZ debate, it was significant RZ aligned with neo-orthodoxy & threw in NT Wright. That tells me his view of Scripture is more in line with Fuller than Westminster. He’s not operating under Sola Scriptura.
We have a mega "evangelical" PCUSA congregation about the same distance away as the former PCUSA now ECO, but we did that size church in our 20s-30s. There is another smaller one 12 miles near my office, but I am in the city five days a week as it is. All the other PCUSA congregations near us are explicitly very liberal. So, we'll check out the ECO first.
I listened to that podcast yesterday and wondered what you would say to Redeemed Zoomer at many points. I kind of doubt that the people whose guidelines he cites would have the same advice for our circumstances that they did in the Reformation.
Our old TEC church used to do Ascension Day on the beach (on Thursday). It was a beautiful service being outside in creation. It was one of my favourite services. Our Anglican Church does it on Thursday, I wasn’t feeling well and sadly missed it this year.
This is what I live for: "Only Jesus’ true and penetrating gaze will matter."
Yesterday my pastor preached a remarkable sermon on Jesus’ High Priestly Prayer. When he spoke of Jesus’ oneness with the Father and our righteousness that comes from Jesus’ death and resurrection which resulted in our oneness with Jesus and the Father, my little brain actually understood for a moment. The enormity of the Father’s love is overwhelming and I praise God that the Holy Spirit has given me the faith that can hold onto this knowledge and my little pea brain can actually rejoice in the moment. “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.”
Perpreptus . . .
There are two things that young men tend to have in abundance: zeal and foolishness. I admire RZ's zeal for the Church, and wish him well in that regard. But he has broad-brushed as cowards and schismatics people of courage and conviction whose clerical collars he is not worthy to unbutton. The great flaw in his perspective is that it apparently has left him in a church without anyone to whom he is accountable who can tell him when he is speaking without wisdom.
Redeemed Zoomer seems to be a uniquely clueless individual.
I'm super thankful that our tiny parish has always had a "real" Ascension Day service, on the proper Thursday. Even though we do not have a church building, we hold about 30 mid-weak HC services, covering all the red-letter feasts for sure, and some of the lesser feasts as well.
I'm going to make it a point of being more thankful for this.
Interestingly, I listened to a debate/discussion between Redeemed Zoomer and Trent Horn (Catholic apologist) on Trent’s podcast “The Council of Trent” To be fair, it is the only thing I have listened to of RZ, but I thought it was interesting. I think you would enjoy it…Definitely food for thought, as is your counter argument. I think at the core, the question ends up being “do you ever give up all for lost or do you fight to the death?” (I pose this as also a cradle Episcopalian who also felt TEC left me)
I do know this….Leaving wasn’t for the weak or the faint of heart. ❤️
Ascension Day, interestingly, is a day of obligation for those in the Ordinariate. No transferring to Sunday; it was its own thing on Thursday, complete with a pitch-in dinner.
In any case, in the case of Redeemed Zoomer, I appreciate he means well, but there is also that unfortunate symptom of the internet where maybe people don’t need as much exposure when they haven’t fully worked through some things that others have battled and labored through for long decades.